those are important points you brought up Rasi. i was being very general with the statements. of course we need systems to maintain, but the way that these are organized and setup and the inherent assumptions about relationships between human beings and between human beings and nature are crucial to examine and rectify if these systems are to be beneficial and equitable. i think it is different for every area - but i think an important aspect to all this is local control and local empowerment over the means and yes more involvement. i think along with this is the fact that nature teaches us and most indigenous cultures would exhibit that it is important to value local resources, that we need to depend on what is around us to supply us, that a system which traverses and controls the globe to create a world plantation for goods and services is bound to wastefulness, gluttony and subservience to monetary values.

i am speaking generally of course and i am speaking as an american who has been raised in this society and of ways that americans in their communities can begin to tackle these issues. given that you mentioned folks in industrialized societies, i think for the purpose of this discussion, i can make some general statements. i think given that we are a nation who is the worlds "buyer" - when we make these changes, the demand side can begin to change - demand on the empire to provide us with goods and services, demand on the empire to ensure our retirement savings by going to war to secure markets and resources, etc.

what i was pointing out with finance is the way it has become a global system that has been setup where these illusory tools which are SUPPOSED to be facilitating industry/goods/services have succeeded in usurping this position and now tangible goods/services are subservient to the math/finance/currrency. nature/food/shelter - things which humans actually need are all managed by means of fictitious documents and control mechanisms. nature has been devalued through this equation even though it is the fundamental building block for all we as humans require to survive - priorities are reversed.