You wrote:

“Well I used the term “esteem” when talking about those brothas who seem to have MUCH LOVE for white women. They became blind to themselves to reality and history, it becomes a very bad thing.”

OK, we both (somehow) already know we agree on that …

Yes, I agree, and it is one thing I have always stressed here and on the other board. I will clearly state -- (again) -- that I am no zealous campaigner for “multiracialism”, for that, in most cases, means bad co-option. I hope you remember/know that I have a 7-year old daughter who is half-white, and so such issues (and especially how they are addressed or by whom) automatically concern me as a black father to a little half-black girl of 7. I always try not to mix my own private and into other general affairs. If, for you, this should mean nothing (to me), Bantu, then I am sorry to say you are mistaken. Yes, you are! You should really be kidding to expect me to blame myself terribly, ENDLESSLY, to “weep without end” that I (“accidentally” or otherwise) made a child with a white woman.

But I will now expand this discussion to question the “Afrikanness” (or “seriousness”?), according to you, of those tens of thousands of happy black (Afrikan) women married to white (or other) men in Europe and Afrika (… and America etc). I guess I shouldn’t expect to hear you make the loudest noise about those “wayward” females. There are many black women married to whites, in case you overlook that, here, there and everywhere, who’d swear they are happy with their lives, or that they would not be happier even if with someone of their own race … And statistics actually show that, on average, a black woman is more likely to meet & marry a white thru (answering to) a newspaper ad, than a black man is likely to marry a white woman (via the same method). In fact, contact agencies are a booming business everywhere, and they of course have many black female clients. In short, there is a current trend of more black women marrying whites, than vice-versa (and I think one easily notices such couples here where I live (IF NOT THERE), for example). Sometimes, I think there is this vehement, hate-filled, anger-drilled campaign (by some well-coached black females) to try and castigate any fellow black male anytime for any and every and all failure and gradual break-down in the black community. Though NATURAL and normal, these differences should, I think, still not be allowed to pass unnoticed. And so of course I wish these inter-gender relations could one day be (made) better.

There are clearly more problems being cultured in the crumbling Afrikan structures, and I think we need to look at these issues from as many different (*black*) perspectives and points of view as possible. I earlier mentioned a geographical factor, which you still seem so hell-bent on ‘rejecting’. I can’t force you to believe me, much less to side with me, and of course I knew before that you have other views regarding the same. But I think you can’t expect me to listen to you and believe your talk about Germany! It’s your right to express your thoughts/views/feelings/suspicion/pride, but it’s another thing to ignore other people’s social circumstances, immediate environments, because Germany is not Texas, USA, and there are different types of relations between blacks over there and those of us here, and even different kinds of blacks, or the way we relate to each other, in particular, and to the “outside”/white society, in general … [One can bring in something private ABOUT ONESELF from the private sphere of life, but sometimes I really hate discussing/referring to past personal/private matters, as if to want to prove my point. I think private matters -- (or matters out of private life) --can be referred to, but I don’t think it helps anyone if such references appear unnecessary].

You wrote:

“It would be idiotic for me to say every black couple in the race, are good, in fact MANY brothers and sisters around me, and in the world, are ignorant of their health and well being. They are not intelligent and do not value unity. Yet, if a black person (a Rasta believer) respects black people and their culture, why will he/she make the choice to fall in love with somebody of another race? I find it sort of disingenuous when I see a black person, in an interracial relationship, constantly talking about their “Black Pride” like they are still “with the tribe”. I don't think one can be Rastafari (pro-black) and date a white person. You can't do both...it's one or the other!"

I see more clearly -- from some of your views -- that we have differing (and, sometimes, even opposing) views on the sensitive concepts of unity, culture etc, or what defines “race” or is “pro-black” or has “Black Pride”, what is “really progressive” etc … Unfortunately, I think things are not as easy as you rather simplistically try to portray them as being. Because we of course need to check our DEFINITIONS. First and foremost! … I think one of the greatest stumbling blocks faced by blacks today -- (whatever “blacks” means, no pun intended …) -- is our great capacity for fomenting internal strife, discussion, endless argument and discussion, racial disunity … I would like to think the issue of multiracialism/interracial relationships is a sensitive one … (sensitive especially because it directly affects MILLIONS of BLACK people, in Afrika and abroad) … Though I believe interracial relationships are clearly NOT the way forward, I must caution myself that everyone has their free choice, and it’s possible there will always be “interracial” people.

But I also believe this “multiracialism” -- (dealing with black-white interracial relationships) -- is being blown out of proportion (by some). [I think Colourism would be another, a more interesting, issue]. What is the “demography” of multiracialism in our society, anyway? Can someone tell me? … How much percentage of “pure black” adults are into inter-racial relationships? Are “black” people -- [male as well as female] -- more into INTRA-racial or inter-racial relationships? Are these habits the same in Afrika as they are elsewhere in the USA, the Caribbean, in Europe, as they were a few decades ago etc? What factors are central in creating the growth of “multiracialism”? Who is at peace with “multiracialism” (or why)? Who is not at peace (& why)? … Whatever the answers, I would say in Afrika, most “pure black” people marry other “pure black” people. In Europe, the Americas and elsewhere, of course the case is slightly different. I think it’s just a natural case, due to MIGRATION, that people -- male as well as female -- interbreed with other people over the lengths spanning their migration … (except we were all to agree and disagree that many people called black, but with a drop of other blood -- (going by Bantu Kelani’s definition) -- SHOULD not qualify as “pure black” or “black” (words which are conjugated to appear to mean the same thing), or that anyone disagreeing is not for unity.

You wrote:

“If you perceive hell, that is, a self-hatred cancer in the black community why not look at and criticize who actually owns it …”

I thought you were already doing that …

You wrote:

“This is true...my life partner is BLACK AMERICAN, he is not WHITE, and he is not MULATTO. African Americans are generally made up of the same racial background as Bantu/black continentals. My mate complexion is so BLACK I doubt he may come from any mixing of Europeans or Indians or Native Americans …"

To be frank and honest, I care less what race/colour your partner is, or what features he has: it wouldn’t bother me a bit even if you had a white boy-friend, an albino boy-friend, a mulatto boy-friend or Congolese or Afrikan boy-friend, or whomever! I KNOW about Afrikan-Americans and their demographic composition; I also know that many have a REALLY diverse genotypic (but also phenotypic) make-up (in them); these are just realities of life. I know that there are even many “averagely dark-skinned” blacks in the U.S. that have as high as up to 40 percent Caucasian genetic make-up in them (though having distinct Afrikan features etc at the same time), such as the stories contained in an article posted by Our Beloved Sister Oshun_Auset late last year: (in a story by the BBC about blacks in the Diaspora who wanted to find out about their genetic ancestry, or particularly about one dark-skinned woman (of very Afrikan descent), if I remember correctly, who found out she has as much as 27% Caucasian ancestry in her, though she looks just as black as NORMAL black can look!) …

Bantu, you sound so proud to reveal that your partner is “ … so BLACK I doubt he may come from any mixing of Europeans or Indians or Native Americans …”, but I honestly don’t see you as someone who is “so black” (in my view, from your picture I’ve seen so far); and so, my simple point is: do you mean that you castigate (even) every lighter skinned (black) person, or that they are not fit for you (as a proud black woman), or why do you go to such lengths to explain personal titbits in your private life, or are you trying to say that you, as a black woman too proud as you are, WOULD not even date a light(er)-skinned BLACK brother just because they aren’t black enough, or dark enough (or if you wouldn’t be sure straight away, if there is any “mixing” in them), when you yourself don’t seem to be so dark? … Or just what are you trying to communicate?

You wrote:

“Listen, when one think of RASTAFARI blackness and resistance, when one is proud of his/her black african heritage & history, one make sure to promote continuation & expansion of the black race no matter his or her economic situation. I can understand being in an area with poor dating selections. I used to live in Germany too, 11 years ago, which had the worst dating choices I've ever faced in my adult life.”

You’re right! But I thought you had very little -- or almost nothing -- to do with Rastafari, from the way you’ve addressed the issue on various subjects on this board (and the other)? I respect that. So I won’t discuss that with you. The quotation above is amusing and sounds funny. Nowadays, Germany has no “poor dating selections”, I think, or not for those who ‘chase such choices’, except our meanings are different … I can understand that Germany had the worst dating choices when you were here 11 years ago … But I think things have changed now, improved, better chances ... In fact, it appears to me that perhaps most young people here -- (who are Germans) -- would prefer dating foreigners, but the men much prefer ‘smallish’ Asian women(e.g. such as from the Far East etc), they say, to any other kind.

And you also wrote:

“Besides … there is almost no Congolese where I live. But I swear to you that those who are here definitely refuse to pursuit white women, but some have to do it to find papers then they are intelligent enough to bring MOST of their wives form Congo, I see it all the time! To be honest with you, CONGOLESE MEN ARE THOSE WHO FEEL INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES THE LEAST... for many reasons, they mostly find a mate within their own nationality talk to a Congolese man he will talk about what I say. But, me, I am a true Panafricanist, I don’t mind hooking up with a black man of any nationality, as long he is pure black, and see it is important for him to recognize his blackness and identify with the struggle.”

Congolese men are those men coming from Congo that I know and have known and have been having experiences about/with in Germany, not what you tell me they are (over there), or what you try to make them be (or those I knew here, even 11 years ago!). I lived here 11 years ago, Bantu, but you can retain your bad memories of this racist country. And I’ll keep mine. I’ll stick to that, to what I know!! Stick to yours, and let me stick to mine! … (I know about Afrikans and their hunger for “papers” -- lousy documents -- in their desire to exchange (or throw away!) their Afrikan identities for glitzy Western ID documents in the “civilized world”, so nothing new you’re revealing to me. Many go illegal, or would risk everything, which I also know. But you’d be mistaken if you expect everyone to be “intelligent” thru con marriages, get fake papers, ferry their entire extended family from Afrika over … In fact, that’s exactly what brings conflict between whites in Europe and native Afrikans sometimes (and I won’t comment further on that, though I understand the situation)…

Normally, no-one should need/use a white woman, ANY WOMAN, as a “front” to get papers: NO! I have and proudly keep my Afrikan passport (even though I could get an EU passport anytime I wanted), would never exchange it for a European one, as MOST blacks who can lawfully stay in the EU forever, behave (at least if they behave according to the law) … So, anyway, what are you telling me now: To look for a Congolese woman in Germany to marry, because Congolese are special black-conscious, militant Pan-Afrikan “race patriots” or what? … (Or aren’t you just sounding like none of them would ‘want’ me, anyway?)

I think this is quite INTERESTING!