Re: please, so where did 'white' people come from
Posted By: livelyup In Response To: Re: please, so where did 'white' people come from (seshatasefekht)
Date: Friday, 6 May 2005, at 8:51 p.m.
In Response To: Re: please, so where did 'white' people come from (seshatasefekht)
You have asked me a whole mess of questions so I will try and be at least reasonably systematic in my answers;
"livelyup, why do people who classify themselves as 'white' always find themselves in the midst of non'white' people defining reality for non'white' people? is there a correlation withe the use of legal /illegal mind-altering drugs by people who classify themselves as 'white' and their own reality definitions?"
I have actually very, very rarely sat around on this board defining how i view reality. The influence of mind altering substances on my conciousness is, at best, very sporadic, usually limited to around about once a month in conection with the full moon. Where i am the moon is in a waning part of her cycle, so i am as 'straight' as the next person. I also usually do all of this in my breaks at work, not exactly the place for turning up in a diiferent frame of reference to my fellows. As for europeans in general, your guess is as good as mine. I am not fond of over-generalising.
"should people who obviously can not define their own existence withe out medicating themselves administer guidance to those who seek to define themselves withe sobriety?"
Im sorry, bt are you suggesting that i am responding to your posts under the influebce of something? If so, just come out and say it. Otherwise isnt this just another example of a personal attack in place of reasoning.
"every afrocentric intellectual who refuse to bow to the whims of the controllers of all of nine areas of human activity in this global white supremacy system remains more sober than any forum for western intelligencia."
I am not asking anyone to bow to anything. We were, in as much as i can remember, debating the origins of white skin tone. I took issue with the supposition that it was due to some kind of interbreeding between albino africans, and have subsequently found that it is due to the relationship between melanin, uv levels, and vitamin d synthesis. But i guess a simple physiological explanation lacks the kind of drama that you may be after.
"livelyup, on racism as opposed to prejudice and bigotry;
1. who created the notion of 'race'?
I think to answer that question would require a background in foreign languages and anthropology that i simply do not posses, and would be a MAJOR research undertaking.
2. when did 'white' people create race?
Once again, this is complex. The Greeks certainly seemed to have an equivelent concept, but wether it meant exactly the same thing as our concept would be debatable. For all we know many pre-literate cultures may have had a similar concept. It stands to reason that any group of people who lived in areas where obviously different populations lived would have probably had somekind of conceptual and linguistic framework for describing that difference.
3. who discovered 'racism'?
4. where and when was 'racism' first administered?
Once again that will depend on your definition of the term. The middle ages saw anti-jewish pogroms in europe, and in Japan concerted efforts to exterminate the indiginous ainu tribes. Vedic society in india could also be descibed as being organised along racial lines, the english described the irish as being of a different race and treated them accordingly, as did the romans the germanic tribes.
5. who was the first victims of 'racism'?
See above, but my guess would be that it probably pre-dates even this sort of thing. The first time some pathological tribal leader or petty tyrant decided that the most effective pretext for going and killing the neighbours and stealing their land was that they looked different.
6. collectively, do 'white' people use racism on 'white' people? if so, when?
Yes, there is considerable discrimination against gypsies and what are called 'travellers' in many parts of europe. Anti-semitism is still alive and kicking in lots of parts of the world. What is going on in parts of what was once yugoslavia and the caucusus most definately has explicit racial overtones.
7. has racism ever been anything other than 'white'genetic survival?
yes, see above.
8. what is the predominant race in europe? africa? and asia? what brought these about?
I would have to get you to beter define what you mena by predominant (ie numerically, in terms of power and influence...) to have a go at this one.
9. what is the predominant race in north amorica? south amorica? and austrailia? what brought these about?
10. what is the predominant race in antartica?
For the last couple same questions.
livelyup, how many races are in asia and when has one genetically annihilated another withe out the intervention of 'white'ness?
That is really two questions. The first one is in any real sense unanswerable. Race is not really a valid way of classifying individuals in a scientific way. The lines are too blurry, the definitions impossible to arrive at in any meaningful sense. It is far more a social construct than anything else, which would make 'counting races' one of those how long is a piece of string arguments. It would depend on who you asked.
As for the second question, yes, the mongols were responsible for the utter extermination of very large groups of people who may well have constituted 'racial' groups. No white folks in sight then.
livelyup, is this arrogance or what:
" As for the existance of asian racism, no i wasnt around in the second world war but a significant proportion of my family was, i have also worked for japanese people, have been studying under a japanese shakuhachi master for the past four years, and have had cultivated quite a number of japanese and chinese freinds through an interest in asian culture and the martial arts."
livelyup, so now you are 'officially asian' and can speak and define racism presently for non'whites'
No, that is not what i was claiming. What i was saying is that i have had plenty of first hand accounts of asian racism from people who have seen it or actually experienced it. It is real. Malaysia, for example, practiced differential voting rights for different groups up until very recently. There are frequently violent and lethal anti-chinese riots in indonesia. any time anyone speaks about someone who is different from themsleves there will be a degree of supposition about it. To avoid this would mean only ever being able to speak about yourself. You seem fairly fond of speaking about white people after all, and are as qualified to do that as i am to speak about asian people.
ask your asian friends about the opium, hiroshima,nagasaki and 'white'ness.
I have, and we all agree that it is nasty stuff, europeans have done terrible and evil things in asia, as they have in many parts of the world.
Where i think we fundamentally part company on this issue is that you seem to believe that it is something biologically fundamental about european people. I would argue that the potential for evil is equally distributed amongst human beings, coming as it probably does from our pre-human ancestors, and pre-dating our division into seperate tribes and peoples. What europeans have had is greater oppourtunity to exploit and harm others by virtue of particular social and technological developments.
this is a wrong that europeans have to undo somehow, if indeed that is possible. But i think that to pretend that the same problems may not spring up somewhere else and in a different shade would be to invite tragedy. it will not be enough for europeans to reform themsleves and make restitution. Everyone has to change.
love and life
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